modern social media sucks for fandom

[memorizingthedigitsofpi]

Sometimes you just need to make a bulleted list.

• all posts are public, leading to epic levels of wank
• people reply at different points in the conversation, also leading to wank but more importantly, obscuring parts of the conversation and also making the full conversation only viewable to the initial poster
• sharing anything automatically shares it with everyone you know on that platform because you can't have subgroups for your content unless you make multiple accounts
• real fucking names
• constantly changing usernames (looking at you tumblr) makes it impossible to know who you're even following/who's following you. it also makes it hard to keep track of friends
• platforms are maximized for "engagement" not for community, so it's all about getting the likes and shares and who cares about deep diving anything
• priority is mostly given to short form content which makes nuance difficult
• everything moves so fast that it's difficult to have a follow up conversation on anything you post because people can't find the initial thought
• everything is presented without the context of the posts that came before and after them - especially on sites that don't give you a date/timestamp
• tags are communal rather than personal, so you never really know what you'll find in there. Everyone wants to organize their own space, but the items they put in their containers might be something you're allergic to (to stretch a metaphor)

I can't do twitter. Tumblr makes me feel more like either a spectator or a performer. Tiktok is every social media experience I've ever had, played through at 100x speed. No option is perfect, but some are way less perfect than others. At least for me.

Comments

[sarken]

everything moves so fast that it's difficult to have a follow up conversation on anything you post because people can't find the initial thought

The speed also discourages you from taking time to think before you reply. "Am I being rude? Am I understanding OP's points correctly? Am I making my point clearly?" All of those considerations go out the window because if you don't reply immediately, your reply might not get read, or you might not be able to find the conversation again later, or you might look like a creepy stalker for interacting with an old post.

I love Twitter, but for livetweeting, not meta. Tumblr is sort of okay for meta, but I hate when the point I agree with is a reblog of something I vehemently disagree with, or even don't fully agree with -- I don't like having to give more visibility to the part I disagree with/the part that's wrong in order to spread the part I think is worthwhile.

[nrgburst]

Ugh, I hear you! I’m so much happier on DW for fannish conversation just because of the logical set up, privacy settings and pacing. People can take the time to make thoughtful posts in reply; to use HTML in their replies; to reply to the distinct branches on a topic instead of doing a weird reblog/regurgitate the previous repeatedly thing. Plus I think most fans on this platform are a bit older and less prone to wank. There’s definitely less content though, so I feel like I have to go a wandering in tumblr/discord/AO3 lands for the new fannish stuff!

[vriddy]

Yeah, I've been thinking about this too after seeing one of your recent tumblr posts. I think twitter and tumblr and the modern social media platforms are inherently forcing people to be performative? Because you're never in your own space, you're always speaking in a big courtyard full of people where someone else might hear you and answer, and there's fun in finding new people like that but it's also exhausting in that you always have to be on. Unless you hide something carefully in a post with no tags on tumblr, I guess, which is like whispering into the void because it will be lost in two minutes since that's just the way the platform works, pushing new content on top all the time.

Like, in theory just as many people could be reading and listening here on DW... but I think that comes with more awareness that you are lurking, this isn't your space. And there's nothing for you to "win" here - you can't make yourself look good by reblogging/retweeting interesting content or by disagreeing outrageously with a Bad Take (which may be genuinely bad, or maybe just too easy to take in bad faith.)

And there's nothing to "win" in terms of engagement here either. There's no like or anything. If people want to interact, they have to pause and write some thoughts - and there's no internet points to win there either, just a quality connection.

Haha, I think I was going somewhere with this but I didn't sleep well and I have to scoot off to a meeting now 😂 I'm having a lot of thoughts about this too, and appreciate having yours to add to the murky pond swirling at the back of my mind as well.

[wolfish_willow]

For real, though. Tumblr is okay and I am grateful that it was around after LJ stopped being viable, but it can feel a lot more lonely. On top of having to be so careful about what you reblog or comment on to avoid getting hate sent your way (I have made that mistake a time or two apparently haha).

I still don't get how fandom is on Twitter. It seems so much less built for it than tumblr is. I still only use it for movie news lol.

[301beq]

True, I have so many mutuals on tumblr who I swear I know more about, but since I don't recognize their username or icon I just. Have no clue who they are.

[301beq]

Okay but same. I feel performative when I post anything personal to my tumblr blog, and I don't want to reblog some of my mutuals stuff to my bigger blog because idk if they want more people to see it.

I always feel nervous when posting my opinion too, because I'm worried about discourse, even if it doesn't happen much anymore on tumblr.

I think it might just be the general vibes/culture? Or my anxiety lmao

[pauraque]

Tell me about it. A lot of this is why I left Twitter, and never got into Tumblr in the first place.

[kaysa14]

you're never in your own space, you're always speaking in a big courtyard full of people where someone else might hear you and answer

That's something I totally feel but hadn't really conceptualized like that yet. I do think of my tumblr blog as my own space (even though I only reblog stuff), but when others don't write their own posts, checking out their blog doesn't really feel like I'm checking out their space, it feels more like just a collection of posts. If that makes sense? And while posts have the username on them, I often look at the content without connecting it to a person. Which is on me I guess, but still.

The void/courtyard aspect is also what's keeping me from posting on tumblr or twitter. Right now I'm giving writing updates in this one discord's writing channel. Which is mostly dead, but at least the courtyard there only has a few active people that I actually know somewhat.

[mistressofmuses]

AMEN.

The metric of success (and design) being "engagement" is ABSOLUTELY a huge deal. It removes so much nuance or in-depth exploration, because getting notes/shares/retweets/likes/whatever is easier done with something short and emotional, which isn't great for a lot of complicated topics.

Also, algorithms can fuck far, far off. I want options to find new content and people and groups... on my terms and when I'm interested. Not when a site decides a person/page/group has paid enough to show up on my feed.

The way things like tumblr (and maybe twitter, idk, I've never figured it out) work with people engaging with different parts of a convo is REALLY hard for community. I don't know that I'd thought about that particular thing (a particular reblog chain taking off, even if it misses some really interesting and insightful parts of the conversation) as part of what makes *fandom* hard on tumblr, but it's kind of obvious now that you pointed it out.

[li_izumi]

And of course, you add in "for profit" into all the social media aspects, and that adds a whole other aspect of it all.

I like aspects and dislike aspects of all the major ones, and really wish there was a way to AO3-ize a social media site.

[vriddy]

Right, I didn't think about the answer aspect as well. If you try to have a discussion with someone, you have to do it in public and bring their original post to the attention of strangers/your followers that perhaps the friend didn't really want to, or it's your answer that you don't particularly mean to shout across rooftops either... Everything is a proclamation, rarely a chat. Tumblr replies can help a bit with that but they're super unwieldy, have a tiny character limits, easy to miss answers, hard to have an actual discussion in there, etc etc...

I'm also worried about the discourse thing, as you've noticed with my BNHA post ;) I don't think they're gone. Some people I follow get some really unpleasant asks, but they have a tough skin so they're able to deal with them like it was nothing. I recall Pi having similarly unpleasant experiences when posting about controversial topics on ao3cotd as well.

[vriddy]

I think discord definitely has the smaller courtyard feel! And you can always delete your messages too, which isn't always possible once people have decided to take your post away on say tumblr. Like, the courtyard is the entire user base for twitter or tumblr... maybe even the entire world since everything is public by default. A discord server feels a lot more human-sized to me, in comparison...

Glad the analogy somewhat made sense!

[301beq]

Everything is a proclamation, rarely a chat
That's a really good way of wording it.

I think that's also why tags are so commonly used, and why prev tags is now used more than just screenshotting someone's post. It's quieter, and you're not taking up space in the post. Also, you don't know if the person whose tags you're screenshotting wants them to be seen and have the chance of it becoming popular

[vriddy]

I'm slowly finding my way around my corner of fandom twitter, but it's definitely a strange and fraught kind of experience and I'm very careful about Not Having An Opinion about anything because wow do things escalate quickly, and always in terrible ways. It can be fun to connect with readers: I post about fic updates, and some people who've never left a comment before seem more comfortable doing that over there. Same for connecting with fellow authors, it's a lot easier to have warm little conversations with people there than on tumblr, or that's been my experience so far. I'm, huh, not a tumblr expert either 😂

But then no one tags anything and you've got The Algorithm shoving stuff in people's face that they don't want to see, so they decide that whatever ship or whatever it is shouldn't exist at all since they can't otherwise escape it and that's how things can spiral down scarily quick.

Would love to find more chill communities here on Dreamwidth!

[kadharonon]

I think the fact that it's really easy for a post to escape your local circle of friends is one of the things that modern social media just... it's rough on a fandom. It's easy for things that are inside jokes or someone being ridiculous on purpose to get taken completely seriously and at face value, and for a lot of wank to grow up around that.

And the communal rather than personal thing... well, okay, I actually entered fandom in the message board days rather than LJ. I did a lot of message board roleplaying, and I still have friends from the Redwall Fan Fiction board back in the day. And that was sort of communal, but you'd also have sub-forums for different types of conversations, and conversations that didn't belong in a specific place could be moved or removed by moderators, making it easier to tailor your experience in that communal space. And it's just impossible to do that on Tumblr or Twitter in any meaningful way.

I think that there's also sort of an entitlement to certain interactions that would make it hard to do the same sort of thing these days; I could see someone pissed off that their thread got locked starting a hate-brigade, and a moderating team just getting flooded with nonsense.

[dressure]

Honestly, what kills me the most is just how damn present I have to be all the time in those social medias.

I feel like if I want to participate, ESPECIALLY on Twitter and Discord, if I am not right there at the second something happens, it's just... not possible to go back easily to the topic. On Discord, any server will have moved on from the topic you want to talk about, and you will have to go onto 200+ messages just to SEE what they were talking about. On Twitter, you won't see shit in a time-matter and now you have a weird vague tweet for 14 hours ago, another one from 3 hours ago, and then three days latter you will see another tweet from three months ago that actually was the pivot to anything.

Like... that's so tiring. I don't WANT to be engaged in fandom all the time, and when I do, I feel like I got to play catch up with a bunch of bullshit just to see some damn headcanons, and that is IF the algorithm let's me see them in the first place.

[(Anonymous)]

My first instinct was to defend the almost non-community aspect of Tumblr being more welcoming to people who aren't as comfortable interacting with communities. I'm a lurker by nature, and Tumblr allows for a more passive interaction with content and people that I'm more comfortable with on a day-to-day basis whereas forums and more community-oriented socials have the pressure of being somewhat active and seeking out other people to have conversations with. I tend to play my fic ideas close to my chest and don't do much in the way of meta and analysis, so I also don't feel like I have much to say.

But then, I started wondering a bit. I'm a fandom young, comparatively speaking. I wasn't on LiveJournal, I was late to FFN, and Tumblr, and Ao3. The only forums I've ever been even remotely active on were NaNoWriMo forums. A lot of my resistance to more community-based fandom locations is because of the drama, fighting, and how quickly things can just explode, and when it comes down to it, the unspoken social rules that I worry I might break are a small drop in a very large ocean.

I kind of wonder if that's in part because I've only ever experienced fandom "community" through Tumblr, and social media in general through the major socials, where everything is very out-there and you have to sacrifice interaction for privacy and any misstep is very quickly and harshly punished. IDK, just some thoughts really. Also a possible reason why places like Pillowfort and here tend to be populated with older fans than younger, community's scary when all you know is Tumblr

[drawnecromancy]

It's interesting because as someone slightly younger whose first fan experiences were on Instagram (yeah. i know. it wasn't great, and the absolute absence of warnings on anything were uh. Interesting!), and who then migrated on Tumblr (and couldn't get into Twitter), it feels like I've never had the personal/actual talking parts of fandom.
But yeah, for me on Tumblr sometimes reblogging things isn't what I like doing because even if I do have somewhat of a tagging system for my blog... it's still kinda showing everyone who follows me the Thing if they haven't blocked a specific tag. That and it's a lot like screaming into the void sometimes. (I'm also realizing maybe on Tumblr I like using tags to ramble because it feels more like whispering to myself than, like, the actual post.)
Twitter ? That thing scares me. It doesn't feel like there's a lot of context to anything on it, you can't have nuance in 240 characters, and I am afraid of posting literally any kind of fanart over there because of this.
(I'm not sure if I'm even on topic at this point i am very tired)

The most sense of community and actually discussing stuff with people online I've had was on a roleplay forum in 2014- I've kept some lifelong friends from back then. There were both the roleplay and longer posts and a real time chat box! It was great. Discord, to an extent, have given me some Actual Discussion Time but only in one or two specific servers.

Honestly ? This is why I decided to join Dreamwidth when you started talking about it because. uh. I wanted to try out actually talking to people for once. Which is something I've barely done in online fandom spaces simply because... there wasn't really a way to, unless my friends are into the same thing. I'm glad I found someone who encourages me on my fanfic endeavors irl, and also likes the elder scrolls and laughs with me about my wacky headcanons. I don't think I've found any place where something like that could happen yet.

[pegasus143]

Honestly the thing I dislike most about social media is how difficult it is to find that one incredibly specific thing that you lost. Like, let's say you remember a post that mentioned a specific character, location, and random fun fact. If you try and search those things together on any social media site, you're not going to get any results, even though the post containing all three of them is right there on the site!

On ao3, you can kind of get that to work, since you can search for specific combinations of tags (assuming that the work author tagged those things), but other social media sites don't let you search tags in specific combinations. This also can lead to some issues -- let's say you have a favorite character in a fandom, but they're not a fandom favorite. If you go in that character's tag, here's what you're going to find:

1. Posts about the fandom favorite that are tagged with every character tag (you could technically eliminate these by blocking the tag for the fandom favorite, but you usually enjoy posts about this character -- just not, you know, when you're looking for posts about a different character)

2. Pretty pictures, gifsets, incorrect quotes, etc. -- all the stuff that's easy to make and pretty (or not-so-pretty, but you know what I mean) to look at

3. Character analysis, meta, fics, etc. -- the meaty content

If you're in a mood for only meaty content about this character... unless you know someone who's reblogged a lot of that sort of thing and has literally the best and most specific organizational system ever, good luck finding what you're looking for. You'll either be stuck in the character tag scrolling past stuff you don't want to see, or in some other fandom tag (such as meta) scrolling through stuff you don't want to see.

[razia]

The way people are incentivized and rewarded (with likes/rts/follows) for starting drama is one of the big reasons for putting me off social media lately. I tried my hand at Twitter for a few months, and those were very, very miserable months. I was constantly bombarded by tweets of people I didn't follow and subjects that don't interest me at all, either because someone I follow liked it or because the algorithm thought I might like it.

Also, it might just be my very personal experience, but people also seem to be nastier on Twitter, if only for the fact that you have very few words to use, and need to be as snappy and concise as possible. Not that Tumblr is much better, but at least it has a bigger character limit. It's also exhausting to be in public mode all the time, knowing that at any point anyone can stumble upon your words, and try to spin some drama out of it.

[ms_katonic]

Indeed. Facebook has the filtered posts but has your real name and face attached to it so NO. Everywhere else has the lack of privacy and you feel more like you're performing than actually talking to anyone.

Still. Your posts are helping me forgive Tumblrites for being... well. The site they/we are on encourages the worst of fandom, not the best. Doesn't excuse the excesses and abuses, but the worst offenders would either learn to behave or not be able to do as much harm on a more humane platform.

[wingedcatgirl]

Honestly, it feels like the only reason fandom is on Twitter is that they had to go somewhere after Tumblr banned porn, and... well, we can't figure why they picked Twitter instead of Dreamwidth, but they sure did that.

[yume_hanabi]

Twitter's been good to me in terms of interactions--it seems like it's where most of my fandom hangs out, and people respond more freely to tweets than to tumblr posts. It's the main reason I'm staying on that platform, because I hate everything else about it.

The "everything moves too fast," though, I feel that. I always feel like I'm constantly trying to catch up, and it doesn't help that I have to wade through countless tweets I don't care for. At least tumblr tags make for an easy blacklist (this is why I've made it a rule to only follow people who tag consistently over there), but Twitter's muting system is a joke.

I also feel like the character limit on twitter, and the fast pace of those current social media, really impacted the writing of long, thoughtful posts negatively. I used to write long meta and headcanon posts a lot on Tumblr, but I barely do anymore. That's something I've really missed, and want to try doing again.

There are things I do like about those social medias, but I really agree they suck for fandoms.
Fanexus seems promising, as it looks like it'll combine the best parts of each, but it's still in beta, and I'm afraid it won't really take. I would love for fandoms to move to a dedicated site.

[feast_of_regrets]

This! This is the thing that gets me! I am forever in the mode of "Now where did I see that?" If you don't reblog something immediately to your own blog on Tumblr, hell help you ever find it again. And even then, did you reblog it more than 200 posts ago? Hope you remember a striking phrase to help Google site search your blog! (I know I saw a tool for seeing truly every post you've ever tagged something on your blog somewhere; I think I even reblogged it last time I saw it. Haven't tried it though.) And all of that is without factoring in changes in site policy (like the 200 post thing) that suddenly make old content a lot harder to find. Or purges. It's just very frustrating sometimes.

[pegasus143]

*sighs* Yes, the deletions. Those can be pretty unnecessarily frustrating at times. I have a love/hate relationship with tumblr's "read more" function because of it -- it's great for longer posts, image-heavy posts, or posts containing heavy or spoilery content, but I've also been in situations where I've come across a post that's been reblogged and turned into a really interesting discussion, which obviously made me want to read the full original post, but I couldn't because the original had been deleted. And obviously I think people should have a right to delete things if they'd like to, but also it can make any resulting conversations confusing, difficult to follow, and highly prone to misinterpretation and wank. It's almost like there needs to be a standard of "if the original post is no longer accessible to a new person who happens upon the discussion, then it needs to be brought on to a new post." But also, you can get into a lot of re-hashing of issues that have already been hashed out that way.

Another situation that I've been in was when I was looking to reference a behind-the-scenes fact from something that had been in a twitter thread of similar behind-the-scenes content. I actually got to the thread pretty easily, but the tweet I was looking for wasn't there. Eventually, I found a post where someone had linked to that specific tweet, but what I think happened is that the tweet in the thread right above the tweet I was looking for had been deleted, so the tweets below that one had gotten semi-unlinked from the thread (as in, they were clearly a part of the thread when I had the link to the specific tweet, but when looking at the thread from a link that had gone to the first tweet in the thread, all the tweets after the deleted one weren't there).