I think if you want to make a go of it, you'll have to be willing to either find existing tutorials (preferably video) or create some to help them learn how to use the site.
I've been talking about this with friends a lot recently - younger people were brought up on apps and never actually taught how to use websites, so things that we take for granted as basic navigation skills, they were never given a chance to learn.
Make it easy. Make it accessible. Make it worth the effort. It ain't easy, but I think it's worth it in the end.
Who knows. I might end up making some tutorials myself XD
Oh wow, you're right! That would never have occurred to me! I wonder if that's part of why so many people talk about wanting an AO3 app despite the layout working so well on mobile as it is.
that's actually what started the conversation. and then I made a tiktok and started posting tutorial videos. and then I saw someone else's video where they were frustrated because they didn't know you had to click on the title to enter the fic - and I realized that apps don't underline links, so that standard isn't a part of their visual vocabulary
also, apps only show you the simplest information and the narrowest options so the buttons and links and menus (apps don't have menus) all get overwhelming and they just get into the habit of pressing next chapter and don't even see kudos, comment, subscribe, bookmark, download etc.
I've been thinking about this a lot clearly XD too much.
not too much at all as it really wouldn't have occurred to me that 'links are underlined' is something young people (...other young people, i'm 21 lmao) wouldn't automatically know; i've never gotten the complaint that ao3 is too complicated bc it makes perfect sense to me even if it takes time to remember where everything is once you've clicked around a bunch. ig to someone who's experience is primarily streamlined apps that do most things for you, having all of that *would* be overwhelming huh
yeah, I remember AO3 being complicated for the first... week or so? But after I learned the lay of the land and posted a couple of chapters it was all fine.
But AO3 was built in web 1.0, over a decade ago. Online spaces have changed a lot in that time, and volunteers just can't keep up with that pace. Plus, there are a lot of accessibility reasons not to.
Getting exposed to the questions I see on tiktok has opened my eyes a lot about what current teens find hard about AO3, and it's a lot more than just figuring out html or css.
if I may jump in here... I read AO3 almost exclusively on my phone. I have a site skin that makes the page more accessible to me for what I need on mobile: increase the font size, white on black, etc. And still, there are menus and buttons and fields that seem tiny for my big fingers. the desktop/website style is not ideal for touch screens.
Also I agree 100% on it being overwhelming. Those navigation options are just cluttering up the screen. Even modern websites hide theirs behind burger menus or cogwheel icons. Because most of the time, the AO3 users just wants to find a specific fandom/pairing/freeform tag and open the work.
So even I - old enough to understand all those visual cues you mentioned - would love an app, hoping that it would simplify the interaction on the main usage paths: find a tag, filter works in it, open a work from the list. Fewer visible options, fingertip-sized interactive elements, maybe even auto-filtering certain things (I'd love to never ever see WIPs and Mpreg), getting more than 20 favorite links, ...
An app would definitely make AO3 easier to access for a lot of people - but how would that app be developed and maintained by an entirely volunteer workforce? Not to mention that it wouldn't be one app, it would be at least two. One for Android and one for iPhone. And then you bring the app stores into it and the apps would be taken down in fairly short order because of the content that AO3 allows.
I don't personally see a way to make an AO3 app a viable option without a public API, and they can't release that until the Archive is at least at a 1.0 release and out of beta.
I completely agree that it's unfeasible, just lamenting the fact that we can't have it *pouts* XD The other thing that AO3 could look into is providing a skin that looks more like an app...a web-app. Some websites display quite nicely and interact well on mobile.
Thanks for the tip, I'll try to find that specific one... (I just found the ao3_skins comm on DW \o/)
We're just back to a great entrance barrier for people who don't understand skins. It requires realizing skins are an option, creating an account, finding one you like, finding the tutorial, doing the work,... a lot of effort and some technical know-how, especially when you want desktop and mobile views to differ.
It would be cool if the standard mobile skin were even more mobile friendly :) And some things you can't do with skins alone. Although CSS has come a long way.
(Hello, drive-by tumblr refugee who’s trying to use DW more often; not sure if jumping in to older comment threads is alright, but no pressure ^^")
Seconding the first reply here—also in my early 20s, had no idea “links are underlined” isn’t common internet knowledge :,D I’m a bit of a web design nerd and I’m curious, are there any other points of frustration that The Youth These Days encounter with old standard design practice? Like, would they understand text is clickable if it’s in a button and/or accompanied by an icon?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2021-06-18 06:45 am (UTC)I've been talking about this with friends a lot recently - younger people were brought up on apps and never actually taught how to use websites, so things that we take for granted as basic navigation skills, they were never given a chance to learn.
Make it easy. Make it accessible. Make it worth the effort. It ain't easy, but I think it's worth it in the end.
Who knows. I might end up making some tutorials myself XD
no subject
Date: 2021-06-18 06:49 am (UTC)Definitely something I'll keep in mind!
no subject
Date: 2021-06-18 06:54 am (UTC)also, apps only show you the simplest information and the narrowest options so the buttons and links and menus (apps don't have menus) all get overwhelming and they just get into the habit of pressing next chapter and don't even see kudos, comment, subscribe, bookmark, download etc.
I've been thinking about this a lot clearly XD too much.
no subject
Date: 2021-06-18 07:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-06-19 01:37 am (UTC)But AO3 was built in web 1.0, over a decade ago. Online spaces have changed a lot in that time, and volunteers just can't keep up with that pace. Plus, there are a lot of accessibility reasons not to.
Getting exposed to the questions I see on tiktok has opened my eyes a lot about what current teens find hard about AO3, and it's a lot more than just figuring out html or css.
no subject
Date: 2021-06-18 07:32 pm (UTC)Also I agree 100% on it being overwhelming. Those navigation options are just cluttering up the screen. Even modern websites hide theirs behind burger menus or cogwheel icons. Because most of the time, the AO3 users just wants to find a specific fandom/pairing/freeform tag and open the work.
So even I - old enough to understand all those visual cues you mentioned - would love an app, hoping that it would simplify the interaction on the main usage paths: find a tag, filter works in it, open a work from the list.
Fewer visible options, fingertip-sized interactive elements, maybe even auto-filtering certain things (I'd love to never ever see WIPs and Mpreg), getting more than 20 favorite links, ...
no subject
Date: 2021-06-19 01:39 am (UTC)I don't personally see a way to make an AO3 app a viable option without a public API, and they can't release that until the Archive is at least at a 1.0 release and out of beta.
no subject
Date: 2021-06-19 06:52 am (UTC)The other thing that AO3 could look into is providing a skin that looks more like an app...a web-app. Some websites display quite nicely and interact well on mobile.
no subject
Date: 2021-06-19 06:58 am (UTC)there actually are a couple of basically browser skin style apps out there. Archive Track Reader is the only name I can remember.
They're made by independent fans, not anyone connected to the OTW so be careful on that score, but I've heard good things from people who use them?
no subject
Date: 2021-06-19 07:31 am (UTC)Thanks for the tip, I'll try to find that specific one... (I just found the![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
ao3_skins comm on DW \o/)
We're just back to a great entrance barrier for people who don't understand skins. It requires realizing skins are an option, creating an account, finding one you like, finding the tutorial, doing the work,... a lot of effort and some technical know-how, especially when you want desktop and mobile views to differ. It would be cool if the standard mobile skin were even more mobile friendly :) And some things you can't do with skins alone. Although CSS has come a long way.
no subject
Date: 2021-08-23 05:52 pm (UTC)Seconding the first reply here—also in my early 20s, had no idea “links are underlined” isn’t common internet knowledge :,D I’m a bit of a web design nerd and I’m curious, are there any other points of frustration that The Youth These Days encounter with old standard design practice? Like, would they understand text is clickable if it’s in a button and/or accompanied by an icon?